John Poulos is the C.E.O. Explain what you think would have happened. And so he went to visit that school. Last week, the Capitol was a crime scene. Yes, that’s true. And we’ve not done that. They made things illegal, using the ability to do the Heil, for example, all kinds of things. This happened in Indiana. Anna Wintour on the Kamala Harris Vogue Cover. It’s produced by Nayeema Raza, Heba Elorbany, Matt Kwong, and Vishakha Darbha, edited by Paula Szuchman, with original music by Isaac Jones, mixing by Erick Gomez, and fact-checking by Kate Sinclair. Well obviously, we know that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was an adherent to the nonviolent protest philosophy of Mohandas K. Gandhi. Sure, certainly. I’m The New York Times here to interview you. I heard that all the time. The majority of them were not being permitted to use public accommodations. So the idea of the hierarchy that was created in our country— and remember, it was created. I actually was taken to that site by a friend who wanted to make sure I could see it. Similar to Kamala Harris & Joes Biden's dismissive attitude to those who don't agree with them. Your book is a phenomena. And she was reduced to having to go on to record herself. — walking into his own office building, and the security guard told him he needed to use the service elevator to his own office. They had a whole issue around Hitler’s bunker, which was near there. And that sparked my interest to look and see what had Germany done in the years since the war. So why is that a debate? It was mostly white people who did this. There’s no single pill that you can take for something that is this longstanding. And your book focuses on three major caste systems in human history— ancient Indian one, thousands of years, Nazi Germany, which was a very short time, and America’s caste system. There are markers and reminders everywhere in that city, in addition to the stumbling stones, which beckon in front of the last known residence of the individuals who perished in the Holocaust. He didn’t see how it was that the people there who were then known as untouchables could see him as one of them. And there’s a small sign that just says, this is what was there. And he said, every Negro in the United States is an untouchable. Described by Newsweek as Silicon Valley's "most powerful tech journalist", she is an opinion writer for The New York Times, a contributing editor at New York, the host of the podcast Sway, and the co-host of the podcast Pivot. I literally don’t know how anyone can say that. Inside the Billion-Dollar War Against Right-Wing Conspiracists. Uber’s chief executive, Dara Khosrowshahi, is charging toward a world in which food is delivered through apps like Uber Eats and “a driver may be human or may be software.” On the way, he acknowledges, “the human consequences can be painful.” Uber is not profitable yet, but its deep pockets and vast infrastructure give it power over independent restaurants and individual drivers. I appreciated hearing Parler's point of view. The person I was supposed to interview was not there yet. That is why you can have, in a country such as Germany, all of the markers that — like you said, the bullet holes that have been kept for a reason to remind people, to not forget what happened. This is a function of where you are perceived to be, your value and sense of worthiness in the hierarchy. It’s shocking —. It really is. Every Monday and Thursday, from New York Times Opinion Audio. Sway is a production of New York Times Opinion. And we can see it resurrected before our very eyes because this has not been addressed. Every Monday and Thursday, from New York Times Opinion Audio. According to people familiar with the matter on both sides, although there had been no contractual cover approval agreement in place, the cover image was not what the vice president-elect’s team had expected. All right, thank you. It’s labor. All right, then. I got to the location a little early. kara swisher. And we saw a situation in which masses of people were able to overrun the officers. “Sway” is a new interview show hosted by Kara Swisher, “Silicon Valley’s most feared and well liked journalist.” Now taking on Washington, Hollywood and the world, Kara investigates power: who has it, who’s been denied it, and who dares to defy it. (If you missed that episode — scroll back and hit play! Well, I mean, I don’t know how anyone can say that after Jan. 6. Doesn’t Mean We’ve Escaped Caste. They could not drink from the same wells. Stop the steal! It fell to them in order to do that. The thing I would hear from people time and time again after they read the book was, I had no idea. But also, there is a cost for those who buy into this hierarchy, who buy into what I would say his assumptions about caste. I would never, ever give predictions. But there’s another popular platform that markets itself as the destination for free speech: Substack.With more than 250,000 unique individuals paying for the newsletters on its platform, Substack is a lot smaller than Twitter or Facebook. What we saw last week on January 6 may have looked like another country, but it is our country. Here, we have Confederate monuments. Don’t let me drag it out of you. They learn the history and they know why it’s there. And as he and Vice President Kamala Harris start their term, it might be tempting to say, let’s put the past behind us. You’re going about your day and you’re reminded. I wanted to know what Wilkerson saw. So among the many scenes that struck me to my core was after the rampage had been quelled and was later into the night, and the cleaning crew is brought in to clean up after the damage that had been done. It was an economic system that was created to extract the labor of people, human beings, by first commodifying human beings in order to make sure that the work that they felt needed to be done would be done, in order to convert wilderness into a country, to be able to tend and to grow the crops that were the lifeblood of a growing capitalistic society. Her reporting reveals that the systems of power in America are deeply defined by caste. That was fine, no trouble. How do you respond? Their CEOs are entitle to one vote, their own. And one of the examples that stands out to me, of course, is when I was a national correspondent for The New York Times, and just going about my work of interviewing people. And it turned out that, when people were coming in from other parts of Europe who might have had nothing in common with each other, who might not have seen themselves as part of the same group, arrived to this country, and it turned out that while they may have thought of themselves as Polish or Hungarian or Irish, it turned out that they were given a new identity, an identity that would have had no meaning or necessity in the old country, but meant everything in the New World because it determined what you could do. And I said, now it’s well past the time. It was a world where there was a Black Bible and altogether separate white Bible to swear to tell the truth on in court. You prefer to talk about casteism. It has affected me in the sense that, as I go through the world, I can never know when this will rear itself. Some viciously attacked police officers. They adjusted some of these things to make up what would ultimately become the Nuremberg laws, one of them having the idea of the one drop rule, which was part of some Southern jurisprudence that would say that, in defining who was Black, all it took was one drop of Black blood to make that person Black. No one else has come. I am worthy of love. I think the answer is all too obvious. What’s the difference? Americans are familiar with race and the concept of systemic racism. Chief Executive John Poulos says it’s the “first step” in the voting machine company’s efforts to counter a “malicious campaign of lies” spread by right wing media outlets and members of Donald Trump's inner circle.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at nytimes.com/sway, and you can find Kara on Twitter @karaswisher. You’re the building inspector, and the building’s a mess. There were signs when white Trump supporters, who say they voted for Barack Obama, this is pushing against the self-interest of their dominant caste status, and then in this election, more Black Americans who voted for Trump. Sway is a production of New York Times Opinion. The book is about an invisible system that classifies humanity. Still, it’s a rapidly growing space for big media personalities who want to reach their audience directly. But it had been all day —, — and I was out of business cards. And if you multiply this times, you know, tens of thousands of times a day, when some assumptions about another individual impedes the ability for something to happen in our society, impedes a transaction, impedes an interview, impedes something that really truly needs to happen and it doesn’t happen, how do you even begin to measure the cost, not just to the individual who is suffering, but also to the entire society, all the things that don’t get done, all the missed opportunities because of these assumptions and stereotypes that are all an inheritance of the original caste system that predated our country. At the time you didn’t have an answer. But the issue is that these wounds are 400 years in the making. So I had to write the piece without him. I’m Kara Swisher and you’re listening to Sway. I’m ready here to interview you. We made the appointment. I had my pen. And it had been all day — now we don’t even use business cards, you know? It’s economic. So talk about that difference, because the police handled the Black Lives Matter protests over the summer very differently. Well, caste meaning the artificial, arbitrary graded ranking of human value in a society, an infrastructure of division, they did create that. TWEET. We have simply not done that because we’re not on the same page about basic facts and basic aspects of our own history. It turned out that American eugenicists were writing books that were huge bestsellers in Germany, and in fact were used in the school curriculum that the Nazis created for themselves and for the students in that world. And so there is something about the connection that one group feels to one party in particular, with this belief that this party will uphold and defend the interests of the dominant. And so what that meant is that the people who knew what a caste system— who knew best what a caste system is instantly recognized caste when they saw it. Well, not having an idea has consequences. But Donald Trump and his supporters still have an effectively unregulated safe space: Parler. And I saw instantly the people assigned to the subordinated caste for 400 years, since before there was the United States, still consigned to their historic role of serving and cleaning up after those who had been programmed to see themselves as dominant and superior and supreme. It was mostly Black and brown people cleaning up the mess. Everyone had to buy into this belief system that the people were worthy, that the people deserved nothing more than that. Played softball with her good friend Maggie Haberman. I think one reason it hasn’t caught on is because it has generally remained in the purview of the academy. No.”On this episode of “Sway,” Kara Swisher asks Mr. Khosrowshahi about the plight of drivers and restaurant owners, and whether Uber is part of the “menace economy.”You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at nytimes.com/sway, and you can find Kara on Twitter @karaswisher. He asked me to leave because The New York Times would be there any minute. Why does that not happen here, from your perspective? Looking at what happened at the Capitol, do you have an answer now? Or click h… Will It Kill Restaurants? I only came to looking at Germany after Charlottesville, because it was there that we saw the conflation of, the merging of these symbols from across time and across the ocean of the Confederacy and of Nazi Germany. Sway is a production of New York Times Opinion. And beyond that, they also do things like leave bullet holes in certain buildings, which I think is important, you talked about in your book. “Sway” is a new interview show hosted by Kara Swisher, “Silicon Valley’s most feared and well liked journalist.” Now taking on Washington, Hollywood and the world, Kara investigates power: who has it, who’s been denied it, and who dares to defy it. So this has continued to the current day. Copyright © 2020 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. It’s a parking lot. Well, there’s a difference between remembering something and celebrating something. Yeah, the fact of the matter is that at every systemic part of our society, we see it manifested. Then the longtime maintenance workers showed up. A Black and Asian Female V.P. On this episode of “Sway,” she explains how she saw an invisible ranking system play out in the raid at the U.S. Capitol, and argues that rushing to move on would be a mistake. But obviously, we have the appointment. kara swisher. This is Sway. You could use religion. And he later gave a sermon in which he spoke about what he had experienced and learned there. Kara Swisher is a contributing Opinion writer and host of “Sway,” a new twice-weekly podcast. Kara Swisher has been called the most feared and well-liked journalist in Silicon Valley. And it was fascinating to watch, compared to the Confederate monuments debate. It was published last summer to much acclaim. 1-on-1 with 'Sway' Podcast host Kara Swisher. Well, you know what? On this episode of “Sway,” she explains how she saw an invisible ranking system play out in the raid at the U.S. Capitol, and argues that rushing to move on would be a mistake.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at nytimes.com/sway, and you can find Kara on Twitter @karaswisher. I had my notebook. Special thanks to Shannon Busta, Liriel Higa, and Kathy Tu. That’s a perfect way to end. EMAIL. I mean, caste is about structure. It’s the system Pulitzer Prize winning writer and historian Isabel Wilkerson describes in her book Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents. He and his wife, Coretta Scott King, went to India. It just hasn’t made it into the mainstream of dialogue. On "This Week" Kara Swisher discusses the banning of Pres. I’m very, very busy. I’m Isabel Wilkerson with The New York Times. Well, I’d like to say that I prefer to use the term subordinated. I am good. We would never expect that there would be a single pill for a cancer diagnosis. On “This Week” Kara Swisher discusses the bans of President Donald Trump’s social media accounts. What was the most important of these U.S. segregation efforts that moved there from your perspective? So you could use ethnicity. Lyndon Johnson, right. SHARE. Now of course, this would be something that people would not even question. We have a lot to get to with legendary tech journalist Kara Swisher this week: the deplatforming of President Trump, the conservative obsession with Section 230 (what even is Section 230), why Parler went dark (what even is Parler), and why some Republicans would rather complain about losing Twitter followers than address the deadly attack on the Capitol. And that’s how race was created and how underneath that is the infrastructure. “I aspire to be a Koch brother before I aspire to be an under secretary,” he tells Kara Swisher on this episode of “Sway.” His definition of power has little to do with politics — it’s profits, he says, that empower you to “control the resources.”Mr. Food Delivery Is Keeping Uber Alive. kara swisher. Big fan of Kara, she is one of the best interviewers in the business. And so they either hid it or you cannot find it or you can’t figure out where it is. The people protesting the possible removal of the Statue of Robert E. Lee, they brought those symbols together, those belief systems together. And he had always wished to go to India. Those who were at the bottom of it recognized the parallel condition of subjugation. One of the things that was really interesting is they had Potsdamer Platz. And among the Nazis, that was more than they were willing to do in defining who could be Jewish. Still a caste system invisibly underneath, just with their classifications. And in everyday ways, the idea that there’s this belief that people in the medical establishment still hold study after study after study, shows that medical professionals still believe the fallacy that Black and brown people do not experience pain in the same way that their white counterparts do. If you’re listening on The Times website and want to get each new episode of Sway in your podcast hierarchy, download a podcast app Like Stitcher or Google Podcasts. And he said, well, do you have a business card to prove that you’re with The New York Times? Kara Swisher, host of Pivot and Sway podcasts, co-founder of Recode: "When I have someone try to shut me down by insulting me or calling me bossy or outspoken, that's when I go full in." I shouldn’t have to show you ID. As we’re moving into the next year, and now we have a Black female vice President with Kamala Harris, some people used to say that America, we’re post-racial and doesn’t have a caste system. You could see sort of the difference of doing nothing and doing something — education, removing of Nazi monuments, et cetera. The randomness is quite —, Yeah, it’s the arbitrary nature of it. I lived in Germany for a long time. In a multiday social media maelstrom, a leaked cover photo that Anna Wintour originally described as “joyful,” “casual” and “accessible” was deemed “disrespectful” by Twitter. And there he visited a school where the students were then known as untouchables, now known as dalits. If you like this interview and want to hear others, hit Subscribe. But once it’s over, is there a topic you really want to delve into? I was told to sit and wait for him. It requires a closer examination, first recognizing our history, how did we get here. And so we’ve seen so many cases. Why is there a different American experience? The United States will not have been a free and independent nation for as long as slavery lasted on its soil until the year 2022. And the idea of race is actually quite flexible and fungible. Wintour said in a follow-up statement to "Sway," “Obviously we have heard and understood the reaction to the print cover and I just want to reiterate that it was absolutely not our intention to, in any way, diminish the importance of the vice president-elect’s incredible victory.”In an exclusive interview on this episode of "Sway," Ms. Wintour discusses the magazine cover, diversity concerns at Condé Nast, the future of the fashion industry — and whether Jeff Bezos could be the next Anna Wintour.You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at nytimes.com/sway, and you can find Kara on Twitter @karaswisher. In every way, they were being held the lowest rung of the American hierarchy. What was the most striking? And we know that, had people who looked like those janitors in that crew that we saw working late into the night, if they had deigned to burst into the Capitol like that, we know what would have come of that. Well, it goes back to the end of the Civil War and how was that major psychic break in our country’s history managed after the war was over? There’s no way to celebrate, as opposed to the Confederate monuments, which is, of course, where a lot of those protests went on several years ago. So the fact that our country will not even have been a free and independent nation for as long as slavery lasted, that’s how long it lasted, that it won’t be till next year, in our lifetimes. Listen and subscribe to “Sway”: Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher (How To Listen), At the inauguration on Wednesday, Kamala Harris became vice president — the nation’s first Black person, the first Asian person and the first woman to do so — and President Biden spoke of “a cry for racial justice some 400 years in the making,” adding that “the dream of justice for all will be deferred no longer.”. I don’t. And I don’t know how to fix it. [LAUGHTER]. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. It’s the surgeon and all the other people who come in, the other physicians who come in and actually look more closely at it to look at all the things that need to be done in order to fix what is gone wrong. It is a form of the tax. What is more important than one’s very life? And so it was through that experience that we can see the connection made by the people who knew caste best. It throws you off your course. It’s not something that people would generally think about. Why do you think there’s a need for this human classification? And he said to himself, I am an untouchable. So when you look at when the Nazis were defeated, something very different happened in that case than it happened here. Is it lack of memory? We need to remind ourselves that no Democrat who has run for president has won a majority of the white vote, or you could say, has won the white vote, since 1964. I just thought I would mention that. And East Germany did not have the changes. Because you have said that Germany had dismantled, officially vanquished caste. I did not look like what he thought that should be. kara swisher. And then one of the places that we see it manifesting is, of course, longevity and health itself. A mob stormed Washington and Twitter locked the account of a president who helped incite this violence. And then that, of course, we know, in the compromise, that signaled the end of Reconstruction, and thus, there was never a true reconciliation. We release every Monday and Thursday. That is a massive reminder of how slavery lasted, which is, again, the foundation of the inequities that we live with to this day, the upside-down power structure of the country that was established in the time of slavery. Well, first of all, any society, any hierarchical society can use any number of metrics, arbitrary metrics to rank people in a caste system. It could not be touched by hands of different races, which speaks to one of the pillars of caste that I identified and described, which is purity versus pollution, where the untouchables, what were formerly known as untouchables, now known as Dalits, were policed and carefully watched and punished for any breach of what’s viewed as purity pollution. Historically, a society needs to get certain things done in order for the society to work. And then moments later, a man comes in rushing. And we have seen that, from Breonna Taylor and Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, that this is a matter of life and death, what can happen to people in the current day. I’m Kara Swisher and I’m recording on Wednesday evening in the middle of a coup attempt in our nation’s Capitol. And I go up to him and he says, oh, I can’t talk to you right now. It’s necessary to know the history. Which I think most people agree with. It is right there, and it doesn’t even need to have a sign because people know what it’s there. Ever — well, keep that policy then. Sway The New York Times Power, unpacked. Let’s talk a little bit about how you demolish the idea of caste. And so they were fascinated by this apportioning of fractions of, quote, unquote, “blood” to make up or to determine what a person’s race, quote, unquote, “race,” would be. She got a lot of attention then, but now seems to be the best time to talk to her, since we all saw that system so clearly in action just weeks ago. And so we still live out the ancient struggles and tensions of previous generations because we have never truly dealt with them in the ways that they really need to be. But it is ours. She rose to prominence as an early reporter in technology on the dawn of the internet age, having co-founded The Wall Street Journal’s “All Things Digital” and, later, “Recode,” which was sold to Vox Media in 2015. And I can see and visualize some of the same out of control, almost primordial, existential response to existential threat that I see in the rampage that we saw on Jan. 6. Its structure. You don’t use the word racism much. And so I say that, if you can act your way out of it, it’s class. It didn’t matter what his education was. Of course the same goes for people who are of Irish descent. And that meant that, here you have someone who is the best-dressed, sophisticated person in the world, and it didn’t matter how he was presenting himself. But I’d like to say the conversation has been going toward the idea of moving quickly toward healing, which is the same thing that happened after the Civil War and Reconstruction. So a lot of people have said this week, this is not our country. They were able to trample the barricades. Thanks for listening. Palihapitiya made his … This is Kara Swisher, and you found “Sway.” The new interview program from New York Times Opinion. There was never a true addressing of what had happened. They paid reparations for the Holocaust, the Germans did. And we, of course, have seen over the summer that this is a matter of life and death for people who are descended from this originally historically subordinated group. One is next year, 2022. kara swisher. It’s social. And I said, well, I’m here to interview you. Anna Wintour on the Kamala Harris Vogue Cover, Inside the Billion-Dollar War Against Right-Wing Conspiracists, If You Were on Parler, You Saw the Mob Coming, This Astrologer Has Some Things to Tell Kara Swisher, Bonus: Kara Swisher and Nick Kristof Discuss Pornhub and Mastercard, Illustration by The New York Times; photograph by Erik S. Lesser for The New York Times. Special thanks to Shannon Busta, Liriel Higa, and Kathy Tu. And instead you have to process and wonder —. SHARE. There’s often, in creating a caste system, there is usually some perceived law of nature or some sense of scriptural divine will that determines that these people were born to be on top and these other people were born to be on the bottom. And that is what the outcome of these elections seem to be telling us. Just started listening to this excellent series. The February cover of Vogue featuring Vice President-elect Kamala Harris kicked off a controversy involving the most powerful woman in fashion and the soon-to-be most powerful woman in the White House. On the "Sway" podcast, Kara Swisher talks with the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and historian Isabel Wilkerson about the raid at the U.S. Capitol, and why a rush to move on would be a mistake. I did not fit the, quote, unquote, “role” that he had in his mind. Well, I left it unanswered because in the work that I do, which is narrative nonfiction, my job is to show— show the history, show what has happened. But do you see signs of it, as the building inspector of the house of America, which is pretty creaky right now, do you see signs that there is an ability to push back this system? There was a sense of rushing to move on and move beyond what had happened without truly addressing the deep, deep wounds and the tragic exploitation of an entire group of people for 246 years, nor was there an incorporation of the true history into our curriculum. And it’s employment. She knew the language. So when you make the connection with the Indian caste system and then the German one, one of the most surprising parts of your research is that the Nazis studied and admired U.S. segregation laws. Caste groupings exist in every country because it can be anything people choose. It’s everything. Special thanks this episode to Liriel Higa and Kathy Tu. All right, thank you. Her Interviews with Matze (Parler) and CEO of Uber, made them squirm and I loved it. It’s on the systems level at multiple systems levels. But they resolved not to allow that to continue there, not keeping the history, because you need to keep the history. And she still was not getting the care that she deserved. And then of course, he had to think about it. He’s clearly in a hurry. Talk about how you make that connection between those three caste systems. And of course in Germany, the history is front and center in understanding what happened in World War II. Well, I feel as if this is the country’s karmic moment of truth. This is in India. You’ll be able to catch up on Sway episodes you may have missed, like my conversation with Nobel Prize-winning scientist Dr. Jennifer Doudna, and you’ll get new ones delivered directly to you. Anyone who read The Warmth of Other Suns, however, has been exposed to the idea, at least from my role as a writer, because I use the term caste. So now, caste is a term that American scholars have been using for years to describe how power operates in America. It had consequences. For four years the NYT sacrificed truth for access, and look what we got: an insurrection on January 6, 2021–led by the President of the United States. And what’s interesting about it is, I have a lot of Southern relatives, and they keep saying, Kara, well, it’s history. They ransacked the halls of Congress, stole property, smeared feces on the wall. That is what happened when slavery was created. And we had a brief time known as Reconstruction, in which there was an attempt at helping to bring some equity to those who had been held in a fixed place again under enslavement for 246 years. Have anything with the New interview program from New York Times national correspondent look what! Later gave a sermon in which masses of people were given the pain medications that she deserved K. Gandhi understanding. 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